As I logged onto the wonderful BPL blog today I was horrified to see that the SFC championship banner was replaced by an age old championship Buggers squad... I mean, what a step in the wrong direction!!
But in all seriousness, I did have a good look at that squad, and began to wonder, where many of those faces are today??
Mat, Jangles, and Nandor are currently the only three playing BPL. Mike most certainly still has his presence felt in the league as he is taking a very understandable hiatus, Jimmy is out on chronic glute injury, and Wetnose left town... but will be back very soon. Besides that.... they're all gone... and only J-Ray to official retirement.
So what does it take to get players to stick around, year in, year out? What are we losing our numbers to?? Transiency? Uni students heading back home? Lack of interest? Other sports? Not able to play big enough role on the team? Feeling overwhelmed by the pressure/competitiveness ... I suppose there is no definitive answer... but plenty of the aforementioned are feasible.
But really, that Buggs team can't be more than 5 years old, and I would venture a guess that at least half of the players pictured that no longer play are still in town. So how do we keep them?
There is plenty of discussion of growth going on in the BPL presidential email threads... and plenty of good suggestions of how to grow. But it's been decided that we have reached a threshold, we've been up and down from 6 to 7 teams for the last 4 years... and are keen to grow past this stagnancy.
Are the top teams attracting too many top players?? Is this preventing others from stepping up and starting new clubs?? Are teams too picky to take a gamble on new players so not compromise the level of their competitiveness that season?
Just a bit of food for thought.
So for those of you not on the presidential email threads.....What do you think? How can this league grow? How can we retain our players better? how can we recruit better? and how can we develop players/teams better?
At the end of the day... the better this league gets, the better the QLD open representation gets.
Are the top teams attracting too many top players? Yes.
ReplyDeleteIs this preventing others from stepping up and starting new clubs? Yes.
Are teams too picky to take a gamble on new players so not compromise the level of their competitiveness that season? Yes.
Is bigger better? As a long term goal perhaps bigger is better as if the current level of BPL could be diluted into 10 teams with a number of new players, the quality of play will come back to where it is now in a couple of years. However, I think in the short term this would reduce the quality of BPL. I also don't think that the current standard of BPL is "nationals" standard frisbee every week, so I am not too sure if it will or does improve the standard of QLD open rep teams. Having a larger pool of players that are more accustomed to higher level ultimate through BPL would surely have some benefits for Open rep teams.
ReplyDeleteThere is a clear divide this season, and last year when I started playing, between the top teams in the league and the other teams. Slamtown and Dojo play the best ultimate and have fairly star studded and experienced teams. Buggers are right up there too and have done the best in my opinion of bringing on a few rookies each season. The experience and quality of the other players on Buggers surely helps with this. With these three teams leading the way I imagine there is very little motivation to start a new team for the BPL with the first few seasons ie 1-2 years likely to see very little in the way of wins or close games.
If the player numbers were there perhaps a 2 division competition would be the best. 2 divisions with 6 teams in each, where there is relegation for the lowest div 1 team and promotion for the top div 2 team. Although this would require league numbers to grow from ~70 to ~130. Perhaps male players from BUML and UQ would organise and create teams if a division 2 were available to introduce them to Open frisbee.
Note of the buggers team above most of the guys are still playing albeit in BUML or the occasional tournie. There are a couple who have moved away.
ReplyDeleteHaving been one of those guys to have jumped across to a weaker team to try and strengthen and train some newer guys I think there are some personal benefits too.
-Leadership training - You learn to call lines, pay more attention to tactics
-More pressure - You play under more pressure but this can be training for a big game at Nats
-More disc and Game time - need to learn to throw or take better shots, nothing better than responsibility and being a leader
I would actually like to see some of the mid range players getting together to form their own team as that will see the biggest improvement for individual players. They may need some guidance but that is often given anyway. Just ask Cunliffe and pull up a chair.
Well for me I could no longer play Thursday nights, so thats why I couldn't play for the Buggers any more. But I'm still playing in the Monday night BUML league.
ReplyDeleteI can't really comment on the current state of the BPL, but when I was recruited to the BPL it was basically because I was playing with Mike in the (then called) YUFL comp. Having someone personally invite you into the team, and give you the opportunity to grow to match the standard of the competition is a great way to recruit players who want to keep playing. There was an expectation to perform for your team, however this was in an encouraging manner that created an environment where you were given opportunities to grow.
New players need to enjoy it, otherwise it can become too serious and people lose interest. However a quality standard does need to be encouraged (the better the people you play against the better you become). Balancing these two things can be tricky, and sometimes winning short term needs to be sacrificed for longer term development. Having a core team of experienced players, around which you can recruit new people I think is an ideal model. Maybe some of the more successful teams at the moment need to split and make 2 core teams around which recruits can be built.
Anyway, thats just my thougths from my experiences. You can't do much about people leaving due to changed circumstances, but you can recruit people, and make it enticing enough for them to stay.
Nick
I'm just loving this chat right now... One thing is for sure: the BPL wont get any bigger or better unless we make it so. It's a tricky time, growing from 6 teams up to 12 or more. But we'll make it work. It's been done before.
ReplyDeleteIt's reasonable to expect that the competition standard will fluctuate as we grow. New players will inevitably 'lower' the standard in the short term, but with time they'll get better. Even Burwell was rubbish when he started... It's life.
The immediate challenge is to get all BPL players to participate in whatever recruitment/development activity is staged before the next BPL league. No doubt there'll be some kind of on-field comp involved, but also likely to be some active recruitment strategies - like talking to likely looking guys down at BUML or Uni or pickup. Or random athletic types on the street. Just not down the Valley....
I reckon it's also likely that the rookies will be put into some sort of Draft and development program. Every BPL team will probably need a new player or two, or 5 in the case of NSU... How we manage this draft and how we manage the players who 'sign up' to play BPL is also a bit tricky .... But no doubt we'll figure that out too.
I gotta say I dont like the idea of too much regulation with team formation. I like the idea that competitive teams & Captains are rewarded for how hard they work to identify and recruit talent. I like the idea that teams forge their own identity, and that their roster is a reflection of an on-field philosophy. But I also reckon we will need to balance that with some strategies to ensure that we maximise the number of new guys have a crack at the BPL.
Anyhoo...
Great debate. Great interest. Get on board. Talk it up. And when the call comes out, put your hand up.
PS: Hey Mayor, With one premiership under the belt SFC has a long way to go before they measure up to the Buggers ... I think about another seven flags....
ReplyDeletehttp://brisbaneultimatedisc.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/future-of-bpl-proposal-from-distance.html
ReplyDeleteJdR - you so funny. Yes, as someone who doesn't play in BPL you can promote shock treatment and what you say makes sense in the long term. But nobody is going to accept losing a half a year of proper BPL in the hope of some better future - people get pissed off losing one game due to rain!
ReplyDeleteThe Championship winning Moreton Bay Buggers from BPL season 12, Autumn 2007 - pretty close Mayor, 5 years ago.
ReplyDelete15 players on the team. 4 in the competition now - Mat, Jangles, Nandor, Wetnose (back this week?)
3 living overseas, 2 playing in the BUML, 3 out for age or injuries and 3 seemingly lost from the game (Michael Kanowski, Harry Birrell and Ben Worby).
It isn't terrible given that James and I would be playing if it wasn't for injuries (or the fear of them), 6 from 15 after 5 years with 3 guys out of the country.
Regardless the point is that the Bugs team in the picture won 2 Championships, wait no its not, the point is that the BPL is not growing. Dead on Mayor.
The Bugs keep records of players and since the beginning we have had 75 players in the league on Buggers teams over 17 seasons. Of those 75 only 24 men are still playing in the competition. Of the 41 rookies (never played in the BPL or another competition of a similar or higher level) who started with the Bugs only 13 are still in the competition. 4 of those 13 are in the current team, i.e the competition hasn't really retained them yet as they are still in their first season.
Those numbers show a high level of turnover. Roughly 1/3 retention, 2/3 loss.
It does seem like a good time to put some effort into recruiting a new batch of BPL rookies, and a good time to put some effort into making sure we provide opportunities for those new players to grow and stay in the competition.
Mike
P.S. The guy missing from the photo is Columbian renegade Carlos Sanchez, the first of 3 Colombians who missed warm ups and photos for the Buggers over the years.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't disagree with JdR more. Creating 4 top teams in one league would mean there would be no leaders or coaches left in bottom league, so teams and individuals wouldn't develop in that league, and would probably quit. You would also lose a lot of the players that just missed out on the top 4 teams who really don't want to spend their thursday evenings coaching beginners.
ReplyDeleteI remember there was a lot of excitement when the Gold Coast formed their own team, as this created a pathway to a new player base that we had never had before. Unfortunately SFC's most recent additions have been Abra, BW and Gref which isn't really using that player base to it's potential.
The problem now is that there aren't many guys in BPL who are playing in division 2 or 3 BUML who can convince an athletic rookie to play BPL. As a beginner you need to have a friendly face who can explain things to you. The buggers have managed to do this recently with TJ and What The Huck, and I imagine the heroes players must see new faces appearing in their BUML team but not sure if they have the coaching ability.
So it's basically a lack of pathways between beginners and BPL. One priority to resolve this has has to be the reformation of a UQ based team
Agreed Stu, you've echoed my current thoughts - UQ and GC being the largest pool of potential recruits that may not have access to BPL.
DeleteInteresting note on the UQ team - only a handful of the players from Los Bandidos are still playing BPL.
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Agree with Stu as well.
DeleteThat said, there are some wheels turning about solving the UQ problem, but it really was a tragedy that all the leaders of BPL let the ball drop when we let the only team officially linked to the UQ league fold.
I'll pick up on Stu's point: "I couldn't disagree with JdR more. Creating 4 top teams in one league would mean there would be no leaders or coaches left in bottom league, so teams and individuals wouldn't develop in that league, and would probably quit."
ReplyDeleteExcept that over in BUML, there are heaps of leaders and coaches in Divisions 2 and 3, and people having a great time.
On a more broader point above - some of the comments are about individuals making the 'wrong' decision with regards the competition - eg Brisbane-based players joining SFC or individuals deciding they didn't want to play with UQ any more. The League administration shouldn't be pressuring people into making personal playing decisions like that one way or the other. The League administration's job is to establish a relatively neutral structure that facilitates individual decision making.
Yes, League administrators can certainly try to influence people's decisions, but their main tool is in establishing the structure and rules for the League.
"Except that over in BUML, there are heaps of leaders and coaches in Divisions 2 and 3, and people having a great time."
ReplyDeleteAs someone who has played frisbee at all levels and still enjoy the odd game of casual ultimate. What I think Stu and Chris are getting at is there isn't the coaches or elite players around to help improve the level of the game. I am sure they are having fun however having played div 2 BUML last season the standard is pretty low.
On a personal note I see those teams that are going around recruiting through selfish ambition as a bit of detriment to the league. While I am a Bugger and my allegiance is will always be to the Bugs (One club man) I am happy to jump another new team if I can see value to the league. I am not overly keen to jump onto a top team just so they can win another league. I would love to see other players doing the same but the pull of the trophy seems too strong for some.
I would love to see slamtown transition to a full GC team and cut some of those brisbane people loose. I understand that this may weaken them slightly and it is hard to find 12-14 guys willing to drive up each week, but as a slow transition 1-2 players per league I think it can be done.
Just chucking in my two cents here down from Sydney side.
ReplyDeleteGreat to see you guys seriously discussing this, really good to have this "talk" and figure out where to next for the best damned ultimate disc league in the country.
BPL has no issue with retention. Take me for example, I moved to Sydney some months back and this is the only thing (sadly) keeping me away from BPL. But I still read your blogs, look at scores occasionally and still get some emails...I am participating from a distance. How many other leagues can say that much about their capacity to retain? In any sport?
Now, on to the other big issues: recruitment and expansion. Is it possible that nothing's wrong at all? Could it be that BPL is going precisely how it should be going (and heading)?...and that it just takes time, lots of it.
I am not by any means suggesting that none of you have any impact on how it goes, nor that your efforts in nurturing it further are pointless or misguided. To the contrary. But perhaps what I am saying is, you're doing great and keep it up.
You still run and participate in one of the best leagues in the country. One that gives players a chance to play a very high level of competition week in, week out. Two seasons a year! That's awesome. And people are very dedicated and excited still...obviously.
All that being said, UQ needs to get a team back somehow. This is how I started at BPL too, in search of higher levels of ultimate I was pointed to BPL by someone at UQ (Nat I think).
Expansion should and will come. But, this should not come at the expense of the core values and principles of BPL as it currently stands (and has stood in all its time), not for short term or long term. What it actually is, is the #1 reason why people come and remain connected to the league. I am truly sad I can't play at BPL, honestly.
Good luck fellas, I am sure you will do a great thing - just be a tad patient.
Someone mentioned a desire to see mid-range players get together and form a team. I suppose that this is what Cobras did a few years ago, take the young up and coming FS guys and have a crack. They did well for a few seasons but are now struggling with numbers.
ReplyDeleteHeroes came into the comp and Jangles and Silent came to help out, but attempts to recruit stars has been entirely unsuccessful. We undoubtedly had our strongest season last season and have had to work things out on our own with the loss of Jangles and home-grown star Bevan.
Over our history, our recruits have been from within our club, bringing guys up from BUML, but we actually seem to have lack of interest this season, with only 11 guys on the list and no one knocking.
SFC came into the competition at the same time as Heroes, and have performed better, partially due to more athletic and competitive backgrounds, but not to be ignored is their formidable recruiting power, attracting some great talent from the top of Brisbane.
Dojo also manage to snag the best pickups, who rarely leave.
Buggers do well to attract experience and develop rookies.
Heres a problem: The top teams attract the best players, and understandably accept them, as we all want to win the premiership. They then have little room for rookies. The lower teams try to attract some top talent, with limited success. For the Heroes, we are trying to get past 4th and join the top teams. It has taken 2 years to begin to gel. We are less likely to take a fresh rookie, as we don't have those reliable guns to cover for them.
When we win a premiership, I will be proud that we have done it ourselves, as a bunch of guys who have improved over seasons together. Losing against the top teams is extremely valuable, as is the chance to compete with the other two teams.
We need more Cunliffes, creating Blitzes. But Blitz, Cobras and Heroes need to continue to improve and push SFC, Buggers and Dojo for a league increased in size to remain competitive.